The Seismic Shift in Leadership - Michelle Johnston

On this episode I have the pleasure of speaking with management professor, leadership expert and author of, The Seismic Shift in Leadership. 

Her name is Michelle Johnston and on today’s show we discuss her book to learn more about how to be a better, more connected leader in today’s world whether in the boardroom or on the jobsite. 

We’ll open our conversation by learning what the seismic shift is and why the transition from an old-school style of command-and-control leadership to one of collaboration and teamwork is beneficial to a company’s bottom line and moral.  

Next, we’ll unpack a few of the themes from Michelle’s book that contribute to this shift, beginning with self-connection, and why being authentic and true to your brand is so important to your role as a leader. 

Later, we’ll discuss the significance of having values that are in alignment with your organization and how owning your calendar can be so empowering to your career. 

And we’ll wrap up our conversation by discussing influences in Michelle’s journey to being an executive coach and why surrounding herself with positive role models was so crucial to building the future that she wanted to achieve.

The Show Notes

https://michellekjohnston.com/book/

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Transcript

Joe Cadwell: 0:08

Welcome to Grit Nation. I'm Joe Cadwell, the host of the show, and on today's episode, I have the pleasure of speaking with management professor, leadership expert and author of the seismic shift in leadership. Her name is Michelle Johnston. And on today's show, we discuss her book to learn more about how to be a better, more connected leader in today's world, whether it's in the boardroom or on the job site, we'll open our conversation by learning what the seismic shift is, and why the transition from an old school style of command and control leadership are one of collaboration and teamwork is beneficial to company's bottom line, and morale. Next, we'll unpack a few of the themes from Michelle's book that contribute to this shift. Beginning with self connection, why being authentic and true to your brand is so important to your role as a leader. Later, we'll discuss the significance of having values that are in alignment with your organization, and how owning your calendar can be so empowering to your career. And we'll wrap up our conversation by discussing influences and Michelle's journey to being an executive coach, and why surrounding yourself with positive role models was so crucial to building the future that she wanted to achieve. After the show, be sure to check out the show notes for more information about Michelle Johnston and her book, a seismic shift. And now on to the show. Michelle Johnson, welcome to Grit Nation.

Michelle Johnston: 1:38

Thank you so much, Joe. I'm excited to be here.

Joe Cadwell: 1:40

Michelle, I'm super excited to have you on the show today as well. I've really been enjoying reading your book, The seismic shift in leadership. I think it's got a lot to offer for my listener audience today. But before we get into your book, Michelle, perhaps we can learn a little bit about your backstory.

Michelle Johnston: 1:56

Absolutely. Yeah. So I'm a management professor at Loyola University, New Orleans, been there for over 20 years, I teach leadership and strategic communication. And it was in my my role as an executive coach, I coach, I usually have a roster of about 18 to 20 executives that I coach. And a number of years ago, this was right before the pandemic, I was seeing a seismic shift happening in the workplace, that the leaders who still thought that command and control and authoritarian style of leadership was effective, they were getting pushed out of organizations. And so that's why I wrote the book, the seismic shift in leadership. And as far as I understand, this is a best seller, best seller. I'm just so so incredibly grateful. And I think the reason why it's a best seller, Joe, is that in March of 2020, I was supposed to be sending it off to the publisher. And that's when the whole world shut down. And I realized everybody on this planet that we call Earth was about to be disconnected. But I just wrote a book on connection. And that was not gonna go well. So I asked the publisher, if I could go back and interview half of the global leaders, I interviewed 18 global leaders initially. And then I went back and interviewed half of them to figure out how in the world we connect in a disconnected world. And so then I just published the book this past spring. And I think that's why it went global. And it's been a best sellers, because we're all trying to figure out how to connect.

Joe Cadwell: 3:27

Okay, so before we get into the shift that has seismically changed, what was the old style of leadership? What was the old paradigm? And why was it not working?

Michelle Johnston: 3:36

Yeah, so it was very command and control. And it was about power, power, power, much more authoritarian. And people were told back then that professionals professional, personal is personal. You don't mix the two. And, you know, bring your professional self to work and kind of, you know, I have I have a guy that I coach, great, great leader and coming out of the pandemic, because I haven't seen my people in two years. I said, Well, why don't he goes, I was thinking about having them over for a cookout. I said, Why don't you He said, Because of my former job. My former boss told me that I couldn't do that. Professional was professional, personal was personal. And and that just is not the case anymore, particularly coming out of the pandemic. We've all seen each other's dogs and babies and homes and you realize that in order to be happy, in this world, we spend so much time at work, we just have to figure out how to have a life, not a work life and a personal life. It's how do you create and curate your own life? And how do you want that to look? And what I found the seismic shift was referring to is that too many people thought that they just had to put on this mask of perfection and show up as these very inauthentic people who you know believe that your your reward for coming to work was your paycheck. You shouldn't like it. You shouldn't be friends with your people. It shouldn't be a happy place and I honestly think that it, everything has changed. Since coming out the pandemic, everything we're blowing up, We're disrupting everything, how we work, who we work with when we work, what meetings look like, how they should run, I was where I did a did a keynote yesterday to a hospital system. And I said that old command and control, you know, is gone. And they stood up. And I said, So what are you doing to connect and leader stood up and said, We don't want any more of those formal rigid meetings anymore, we're now going to do huddles, we're going to have coffee together three mornings a week for 15 minutes, rather than those two hours, you have to prepare these PowerPoint presentations and show up and try to be perfect. That's not connection.

Joe Cadwell: 5:43

So it went from an old school sort of transactional relationship towards leadership, top down sort of leadership. And now what you're saying is, it's more of a transformational leadership where a leader will lead by example, a leader who will make themselves vulnerable, a leader will so listen to the people that they are working with.

Michelle Johnston: 6:02

Joe, you are absolutely correct. I love how you just framed that, yes, I look at communication, as much more transactional, I'm talking about true meaningful connection. And what does that look like? What does that feel like? What does that sound like? And what I've learned throughout all of this, because so many leaders now will say, Well, Michelle, I want to know, if I'm doing a good job connecting with my people, we you know, our company does an engagement survey. But how do I know if I'm meaningfully connecting. And so I finally spent a lot of time figuring out, if your people feel that they are seen, heard, valued and appreciated, then you're doing a really good job connecting. And it's got to be so much more intentional, like you said, you have to embed time, so that you are a leader who listens, versus a leader who micromanage is in talks the whole time, you have to be a leader who's more of a servant leader, I'm here to develop you, I'm here to empower you. It's really a shift in power. The people have no employees have never had as much power as they do today in the workforce. And I think it is, is definitely gotten the attention of leaders like Whoa, it's not all about power, they now have power. And they actually want to find purpose, and meaning they want to like what they do. And if I'm going to be a successful leader, I've got to make it about them.

Joe Cadwell: 7:26

So till today, as a modern leader to lead modern workers, you have to understand the currency in which they're trading. And it's not always about money. It's about feeling respect. It's about feeling like you're contributing to something greater than oneself.

Michelle Johnston: 7:41

I love it. So frame things, you are absolutely right, the currency now. And so the great resignation could be relabeled, the great reprioritization for the great re evaluation. So we did hear from those, you know, millions of people who left the workforce, that some of them did it because they were tired of commutes, right, they wanted a little bit control of their schedule, they wanted more money. But what we heard most is that people wanted to be valued and appreciated and aligned and feel really good about the work they're doing and who they're doing it for. So a lot of people left the workforce because they were just fed up.

Joe Cadwell: 8:20

And the alignment is a key word. I've heard you mentioned that on other people's podcasts, the alignment, what your values are, where you see yourself within the structure of the company, will greatly determine, you know, sort of your attitude when you show up to work and your book, The seismic shift is designed from the perspective of helping leaders become better leaders. Absolutely. Because

Michelle Johnston: 8:43

what I've realized this seismic shift in leadership style, the leaders who were getting pushed out Joe, the seismic shift was that they were trying to be somebody that they weren't their old former boss, their mentor and old coach, they were kind of phoning it in like, well, this is what leadership is supposed to look like, I'm supposed to have all the answers, I'm supposed to control everything and everyone, I'm supposed to do all the talking, I give the directives, right. But the seismic shift really is internal. If you're going to meaningfully connect with your people. First and foremost, you have to be connected with yourself. You have to know who you are, what your story is, you have to understand your strengths, your blind spots. So much of connection with yourself is about spending time reflecting and truly becoming aware of who you are and what you bring to the table so that you can align and find a job that brings out your strengths and find that find an organization that you're proud of that takes a lot of effort and time that really is the seismic shift, it's got to start with you.

Joe Cadwell: 9:50

So again, we'll get into the three different parts of your book. Obviously we're going to start with the you know, the shift in yourself, the connection with your team and then the can election with the with the organization. So getting back to understanding yourself understanding your brand, your style, your level of authenticity you bring as a leader that, as you said, comes a lot from within. But you've also embraced a strategy called I think it's three 360 feedback.

Michelle Johnston: 10:17

Yeah, I think that's the most powerful tool that you have as a leader is one of the leaders that I interviewed for my book. And he's the CEO of a system that I work for that I coach, a lot of the leaders, it's called Ochsner health. And I was interviewing Warner for the book, and he said, Michelle, so many leaders say I want an executive coach, but I don't want a 360. And Warner said, and I asked him why that is the best tool for self discovery. And people tell me, Oh, I don't want people to know what my weaknesses are. And Warner said, I tell them, they all know, they know this is for you to grow. And I tell my leaders with discomfort comes growth because so many of them the 360s hard, you don't really want to know how other people perceive you. But you have to have it usually when I conduct a 360 I interview about 1510 to 15 of this leaders key stakeholders that they interact with. And and so it's about a 20 page qualitative report of how others perceive you and Marshall Goldsmith, who is my mentor, and he's the number one executive coach in the world. Number one global thought leader, New York Times bestselling author, and I love his quote, he said, Michel, he said, When you are in a position of power, you are held hostage by how other people perceive you. And hostage is the key word here. It's so true. Your leadership depends on how other people perceive you know, whether it's effective or not. So the best case scenario is just agree to say Yes, show me the data. I want to know how other people perceive what I'm doing well, so I can continue to do it. And what I'm not doing so well and give me some ideas of how to be better.

Joe Cadwell: 12:05

And so listening, that kind of feedback really takes a lot of confidence and comfortability with with who you are. And again, if you're working with someone like yourself and executive coach, and you have the structure around you to to pull that off, that is fantastic. But a lot of the listeners to my podcast, the grid nation podcast, or blue collar workers, there Foreman's or supervisors or superintendents on job sites, and getting that sort of that sort of feedback might be difficult for them. But what what are some techniques? Or what are some strategies they can go to sort of solicit information, maybe not from 360, but at least to 70? or part of their crew? How can they ask for this feedback? And what should they do with that fee?

Michelle Johnston: 12:44

Yeah, that's a part of the seismic shift to so many leaders think Well, I can ask my people for feedback, what I'm supposed to have all the all the answers, and again, do all the talking. And I'm really advocating a total shift in how you run your meetings. It used to be at 20, you do 80% of the talking because you're the leader. And then at the very end, you might say, Do you have any questions, and then very few people speak up. And I'm not advocating to switch that you as the leader should be the facilitator of your meetings, you shouldn't be asking the questions. It should be your people talking, giving their opinions giving their input, you show that you really value it's true collaboration, you're creating that psychological safety, that trust so that you can be collaborative and innovative. And then at the very end, the last 20% of the meeting is you, you know giving some of the necessary directives. Yeah, I think that that leaders think, oh, I don't want to ask because then that makes me feel vulnerable. And then they might take advantage of me. No, they end up respecting you more. One of the things that I did when I was a really self conscious young professor, I was I was one of the very few professors in the business school, who was teaching a soft skill course I was teaching business communication, I was teaching leadership, strategic communication at the MBA level, MBA level, and I was surrounded by my colleagues who I just idolized, and they were teaching finance, and stock trading and economics and accounting. And so I was self conscious and thought, Okay, I need to show them that the soft skills of communication, culture and leadership really do drive financial performance. So I went and I collected data with my colleague, Dr. Kendra Reed, and we wanted to know that if a leader actually does what we're talking about Joe, and what you're addressing, the listeners are thinking, oh, gosh, you're just how in the world do I get this feedback? We wanted to know if leaders who created a positive team listening environment, positive team listening environment, all that meant was you as a leader saying, hey, here are the numbers from last month. Here are our customers. Here's, you know, things that we did well, or here's our revenue, just transparency and metrics how we did last month. I want to hear from you, well, what can we do bit better? You know, what did we not do? So well? How can we join our brains together and figure this out, I want to hear from you, we will do it together. Leaders who actually had those discussions, were transparent with the data involved their people, they made more money. The teams that we collected the data from these were manufacturing facilities, these were facilities that took car batteries, and turn them into plastic portable, can't paint cans. So this is in the manufacturing facility, and the leaders who really did say, I'm a facilitator, we're going to figure this out together as a team, those leaders made more money.

Joe Cadwell: 15:46

And transformational leadership, again, it's starting with you, it's starting with the the individual, the leader, the recognized boss of this particular job, if you will, but you know, connecting with your team is hugely important. And we work, having come from an environment as a professional commercial diver within the trades, and having really had my life and the lives of other people, you know, accountable to our actions as a team was was hugely influential on my understanding and development of my own leadership style. But knowing your team, knowing your people is huge. What can you tell us about that? Michelle?

Michelle Johnston: 16:24

Yeah. So the first thing that I learned in conducting all these interviews with with these leaders all over the world is I said, How do you meaningfully connect with your team? And one of the best leaders that I interviewed who is one of the best leaders at connection is one Martine, and he's the global president of Kind bars K I N. D, the snack, the granola bars? I've had a few of those. Yeah, huh. Yeah, it's very popular. And one of the metrics that he's evaluated on as the global president is not just how many bars that he sells, but it's how many acts of kindness. And last year was 250 million acts of kindness, like they really are trying to make the world a kinder place. It's just an incredible mission of a company. And so I said, One, how in the world are you connecting with your people. And he lifted up his expresso cup, and he says, Michelle, I'm a European, I'm from Spain. He said, I love my Expresso. I connect with my people in my meetings over coffee. And they know that whether it's a 30 minute meeting, 45 minute, 15 minute meeting, the first five or so 10 minutes are going to be true. We're drinking coffee together. And I want to know, what was your family? Where'd you go on your vacation? What are your children do and how's the start of school. So what we found from our data, Joe, is that in order to meaningfully connect with your team, you have to show that you care about them as a whole person, not just the results that they're bringing to the table. And that means it's got to be intentional. And so I advocate that you open up your team meetings with some sort of just, you know, either How are you doing? Really, which was a great question during the pandemic? Because if you just said, How are you doing? People thought they were supposed to say, Okay, if you as the leader said, How are you doing comma, really, and if the leader said, this is hard, and it's okay, if you're not okay, if the leader gives the team permission to really be honest and candid, that's all we're talking about here. I'm not asking for these leaders to be therapists. I'm not asking for these leaders, to be best friends with their people, you still need to lead and hold your people accountable and get results. I'm asking you to show up and show your people that you really do care about them as a whole person on a personal level.

Joe Cadwell: 18:38

And I think a lot of that just starts with knowing people's names, and really taking the time to invest in just names and it sounds silly, but you can work shoulder to shoulder for people and always be Oh, yeah, that that fell over there, that apprentice or that journey level worker there. And if you don't even take the time to know their name, that that really begins to set that sort of the barrier up. So I encourage that a lot in the classes I teach with my first and second term apprentices when I start developing, planting the seeds of leadership early on in their career at the first and second term apprentice level, to get to know your people's names, get to know a little bit about their hobbies, their family, you know, you don't have to be best buddies with them, but just get to know them as a person as an individual. And it'll make your connection with them that much stronger and make your working life that much easier. And so connecting with your people.

Michelle Johnston: 19:27

You're You're doing a great job with your in your apprentice program. That is exactly what I tell my people to and whenever I do these fireside chats with my book and we have questions and answers. There's always a person who comes up at the end who says, Michelle, you're not gonna believe this. I just went through the pandemic I ended up quitting because my boss never asked me in two years as I was quarantining at home alone, never even asked how I was doing. And then I had another person come up to me, she said, Michelle, I'm I'm a single woman. I have a dog My dog's name is Gypsy, I love my dog, I don't even think my boss knows that you know anything about me if they just showed that they were interested, it would make such a difference. And that's what we're talking about. Just show your people that you're interested and you care about them as humans.

Joe Cadwell: 20:17

I think I heard it when I was listening, prepping for our interview, I was listening to to one of the podcasts, one of the many podcasts, you're on Michelle. And someone said, you know, today's workers really are volunteers. I mean, you know, equity and pay is really sort of leveled the playing field, the power does seem to be in the hands of labor now. And it's not good enough just to work for a check. You want to work for an organization where you feel valued and respected. And having something like a positive job site culture, on site is huge, and retention, and with retention comes at, not washing away the bottom 20% constantly and having to retrain and all the resources that go into that. So holding on to people making them feel valued. Keeping them as part of an organization and sharing a vision is instrumental in success in today's very competitive world. So we learned about connecting with ourselves, we learned about connecting with our team. Before we move on from connecting with our team, you have a part in your book there. It's called the leader is servant, I think is right servant leader. What do you mean by that?

Michelle Johnston: 21:16

Yeah, it's it's, and I learned this from a CEO of a hospital, he said, You know, when I became CEO, the organizational chart was given to me and put in front of me, and I was at the very top. And he said, and I realized that the way that I was going to be effective, and really, you know, improve the quality of patient care. I turn when I meet with my people, I turned the organizational chart upside down. And I said, No, no, no, I'm at the bottom. I said, I'm here to support you, all you all are the ones that are delivering the patient care. So it's a servant leadership mentality that you are at that you're not the one necessarily holding all the power at the top that the people, your employees have the power to deliver the best customer service, the best patient care. And so servant leadership is is about I want to develop you, I want to help you be the best version of yourself, what can I do to remove your barriers, and to help you succeed, it's just a shift in orientation towards the person and helping the person that's what servant leadership is about.

Joe Cadwell: 22:24

So now, moving on to the third one of the another chapter in your book connecting with the organization. So if we've connected with ourselves and with our team, now the organization has an alignment of vision, what, what got you to write a chapter just on connecting with the organization?

Michelle Johnston: 22:38

Yeah, so I was interviewing these leaders, and they were talking about, you know, when I was asking them about their stories, some of them said, Well, I got to this place where I am. Now finally, because I had to quit many other jobs. When I realized that I wasn't aligned with what the company was doing. It might be unethical, it might be, you know, working for a product that you didn't believe in working, I had one hospital leader who was the CEO of a nonprofit. And he said, If he had been the CEO of a for profit, and finally had to leave, he was up in an airplane on 911. And literally, he said, the pilot came on and said, we've got a, I've got to fly this plane, like a jet airplane, we've got to land immediately, it seems that the work unit is something he could he didn't go into the details that we were under attack. But he said they landed like a like a fighter jet. And as soon as I landed, I was supposed to go and fire 1000s of people. And I just couldn't do that anymore. I'm not that person, I couldn't be that person. And I quit. And I finally found a better role for me that was aligned with my values. So I heard a lot of stories of, of trying to find the right fit with with culture and with company and with purpose. And then once you are in that organization, and you feel that it's a right fit, one of the things that you need to do to do to connect with the organization is own your calendar. And that was another big surprise, I did not think that I was going to be writing a chapter on owning your calendar, and Warner, Thomas, again, the CEO of Ochsner. He said, Michelle, that is how you connect with all of your stakeholders is trying to figure out who are the important people that I need to communicate with on a daily basis on a weekly basis on a monthly basis quarterly annually, you've got to really think about that. And you have to develop a rhythm so that you are interacting with the people who are going to help you be successful. And what does that look like? And that's what I was talking to you earlier, when I was delivering the speech yesterday and I was having everybody stand up the leader saying what are you doing differently now? We've got to disrupt the way that we're working in order to connect and they said yeah, I'm now doing the 15 Minute huddles in the morning. So connection with the organization has to do with knowing your values, making sure that your values are aligned and You can sleep at night working for this company, that it's a good fit. And figuring out that that meeting rhythm, that operating rhythm, that communication rhythm so that you're meeting with the right people so that you can be successful.

Joe Cadwell: 25:14

Speaking of success, who helped you on your journey to be successful? Michelle?

Michelle Johnston: 25:19

You know, I'm so blessed. In 2001. I read this article in The New Yorker magazine chronicling Marshall Goldsmith, he was a leadership coach, I don't even know if the word executive coach had been invented yet. Maybe it was invented with this particular article, but it chronoa chronicled martial going around and at the time, he was coaching top level executives, and a lot of them were jerk bosses. And I just remember reading this article and relating so I was I saw so many jerk bosses. And I remember thinking in 2001, that when I lifted my head up from publishing, publishing, publishing, and I had a little bit more autonomy and freedom to help executives that I wanted to be an executive coach like Marshall Goldsmith, so I tore that article out of the New Yorker, and I put it in my filing cabinet, it's still up at Loyola to this day. So in any case, Marshall Goldsmith, in the back of my head was I like this guy, I want to be like this guy, fast forward years. And he was about to turn 70, on stage at this big leadership event that I was there with a bunch of leaders that I was coaching, he had just written his book called triggers. And he said, I've made all the money I need to make, I don't need another feather in my hat. What I want to do now is give back, so if you want to be mentored by me, send me an email, and I sent him an email. And he became my official mentor. And in working together, he invited me to be a part of this esteemed group that I'm so grateful to be a part of. It's called 100 coaches of the top global coaches in the world. And we get to meet on Mondays and really discuss how we can best help leaders with the issues facing them today. And it's just a fantastic experience. I feel very blessed.

Joe Cadwell: 27:01

I'd have to say, so I've heard you mentioned it a few times. Michelle, you talk about global leaders, and I'm just wondering contextually how to global leaders, people in Europe, people in Asia, how did their management styles different from those in the US?

Michelle Johnston: 27:14

Yeah, I was really worried, to be honest with you, when I started hopping on these global calls with people from India and Russia, and France, and Canada, and England and me. And wondering, and I just sent my book off to the publisher wondering, is this just a American thing that I'm seeing with connection? Is this going to be applicable. And I realized that on this one, call three of us, three of us, had just written books on the importance of true meaningful connection in order to be a successful leader. So this is not just an American thing that I witnessed, this really is a global phenomenon. As far as global leaders, I have learned that in some parts of the world, it is even more common for that command and control. And it's taken a little bit longer in some parts of the world, for organizations to recognize that that's not effective. Now, the great resignation was on a global scale. And so that got a lot of people's attention. But I will say that, that in America and the United States right now, we're definitely forging a path. We're a bit more progressive when when we know and leaders know that it is all about caring about relationships, and so some parts of the world might be a little bit slower.

Joe Cadwell: 28:35

Well, we're getting close to the end of the conversation, I'd like to hold you to two or three tangibles that that listeners right now three tangibles of what if you're a leader, listening to this right now, or potential leader listening to this right now and you three things that you should stop doing as a leader, and then Michelle, if you could elaborate in three things that they should start doing today.

Michelle Johnston: 28:57

Number one, please allow your people to make mistakes. So don't shame your people, if they make mistakes. Organizations need to be innovative. That's what they tell me all the time. We want our people to be innovative leaders who create cultures of fear, and who make people feel bad or punish or shame for asking what could be potentially a stupid question or making a mistake, you're never going to be that innovative company. So the number one thing is allow people make mistakes. And the opposite of that is Don't shame them. The second thing that you could do is let go of micromanagement. And instead, empower your people. People just want to have a voice and they want to be seen. They want to be heard. They want to be valued. They want to do their jobs. And the biggest complaint that I hear is my boss micromanages me, so don't micromanage. Instead, empower. And the third thing is just embed time to intentionally connect at the keynote I was given yes Your day when I had everybody stand up and give some best practices one one called at the Power Hour is they're asking their people just to get out behind their desk if you're actually going to an office for an hour and connect with your people. Some people are using the terminology called rounding like they do in hospitals for corporate life just get up and round you know manage by walking around they call it the our power to in order to truly meaningfully connect with your people, then you're to me, Joe connection drives results and all the research is showing that if the chick got it and bed time for it, and it's gotta be intentional connection drives results.

Joe Cadwell: 30:40

I like it connection drives results. Well, Michelle Johnson, this has been a fantastic conversation, where can people go to find out more about you and your book and your work?

Michelle Johnston: 30:49

Thank you, Joe, www dot Michelle with two L's cay johnston.com. That's Michelle cay johnston.com. And it has all of my podcasts that I've been on. And I just launched my own podcast called The seismic shift, and the book and just exciting things and just contact me, I would love to hear from you. Thank you again for having me.

Joe Cadwell: 31:11

Man, thank you so much for taking your time to be on the show. My guest today has been Michelle Johnston, author of the seismic shift. Find out more about Michelle and her work, be sure to check out the show notes for this episode, or visit the grit nation website at www grit nation podcast.com. And finally, if you enjoyed today's episode, please consider sharing it with a friend, family member or anyone else you think they get something out of it. As always, I appreciate your continued support. And until next time, this is Joe Cadwell. Thank you, you are wanting to know more today than you did yesterday.

Michelle Johnston: 31:48

I have a leader yesterday who said Michelle, I got the feedback again from my people that I'm not the best listener and then I interrupt and I don't give a lot of space for them to talk. I said so what are you going to do about it? And he said, Well, I have a I have a listening jar now and every time I'm asking my team for help so during team meetings, I'm bringing the jar in and and I'm putting a $5 bill in anytime they catch me interrupting and not allowing anybody to talk